I found this substack article insightful. It offers a compelling reconciliation of the Apostle's Creed with Jesus' promise to the penitent thief that He would be with him in paradise. Be blessed!
Simply put. When one dies they “sleep” until their resurrection. They neither go to heaven or hell. There are 3 resurrections in the Bible #1 the Firstfruits who have died in the faith, who become the Bride of Christ at His(2nd)Coming then the rest who have died (all of mankind who were never called) lived not again until the end of the millennium, which is the 2nd resurrection, is when all will have their first opportunity to know the Truth of God to accept Christ as their Saviour and to choose or reject the symbolic Tree of Life. The 3rd resurrection is for all who have rejected their Firstfruit calling (and the 50% of the Laodiceans who do not repent in the coming Great Tribulation) and are cast into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death, to be as if they never were. Not in an eternal life in hell, that is a diabolical myth! That has been concocted by a false traditional christianity!!!
Now, when Christ died he was dead ( slept) for 3 days & 3 nights as prophesied. And then Resurrected, he had not yet ascended to the 3rd Heaven to be received unto God the Father.
The “thief” will not meet with Christ in “paradise” until he is resurrected when he comes up in the 2nd resurrection, After Christ has reigned 1000 years as the King of Kings over the whole earth when The Kingdom has been established for a Millennium. It’s all 100% Scriptural and each in their own order. Prove all things….
God is a “I love you, but you doubt, so I will do something really outrageous that will make you believe my love, you know, the Passover, then the Law and one-year interval for annual atonement, oh, still you don’t believe, ok I will show you, the widow and her cruse of oil, her son resurrected, don’t forget new life from dead wood with almonds & blossoms on Aaron’s rod in Numbers, the Prophets topping earlier Supernatural events like Elijah’s challenging Baal’s prophets then God’s “on demand” fire, other profits they killed.” God, still don’t believe me, in the Valley of Dry bones, he describes reconstituting long dead, scattered parts; still no faith - refresh with Abraham & Isaac & a Ram caught in a Thicket. Ok, still doubt, I will show you how much I love you, In his 3 year ministry, Jesus resurrects Jairus’ daughter, Peter’s mother, the Centurian’s servant. I mean, one would think that the quantity of restoring to life the recent dead, should have made God’s point, and that valley of dry bones vision should have made the point that restoring of life is possible with long dead body parts. But, no, God is about to improve on his Aaron’s rod, “new life from dead wood” example by letting the cross (dead wood) produce new life for his son out of such great love for us.
But let me step back on this theme of God one-upping himself to demonstrate how very much He loves us. Finally, he says, I’ll show you, I will become a baby as prophesied, live to the age of a Rabbi, then demonstrate resurrection love with solitary examples, then accept being nailed to a tree/dead wood and, in my son’s resurrection, I will again show you how much I love you…and, as Jesus once said that even the rocks would cry-out, while Jesus is forsaken on the dead wood, I will produce an earthquake and, in nearby graveyards, the graves will cry-out and expel multiple saints who, like Lazarus, probably “stinketh much” in order that the vision of the valley of Dry bones becomes a witnessed reality of multiple Saints in the days in which the Kingdom of God has come to earth. Finally, after the very real cessation of ekg & eeg death & burial, only through the Power of God is His love demonstrated to us through the witnesses and written accounts of a nail/spear scarred side, hands & feet of Christ. Hastily assembled, that’s how I have come to see this.
Given the earthquake & the graves opening & the dead walking about and also witnessing the Resurrected Jesus (about 500 witnesses)
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
“For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
Unfortunately there are a lot of misconceptions here. Do we trust the Bible or do we prefer imaginary stories?
The strange idea that Jesus was still alive when he was dead is without biblical merit.
We know from 1Pet 3:18 what happened.
> For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
He died as flesh. He was raised in the spirit. Between the two he was dead, having surrendered his spirit to the Father at his death.
v19 in which he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison
He went to the spirits in prison in the spirit in which he was raised. AFTER he was raised, not before.
That’s one matter, there are several more but we’ll see what happens next.
Do we care for truth out of the Bible or are we willing to make it up as we go?
4 commentaries that I referenced say that Eph 4 is a reference to when Jesus went from the the heavenly realm to the earth and took on flesh in the incarnation. 🤷🏼♂️
As a 14 year-old, in Methodist Youth Fellowship, we discussed the “descent to hell”, described in the Creed and we found the NT passages as well as the Psalm references.
Imagine the power of the pre-incarnate Jesus, described in John 1, how he created everything & nothing was created without Him; and that description serves as a basis for launching Genesis. I had to ask myself 30 years ago, “What did God do with the pre-incarnate Jesus after creation of everything, put Him on a shelf and wait for the Incarnation in Bethlehem?” [I was reading Rev. Andrew Jukes’ “The Types in Genesis” in which his many footnotes cited the interpretations of the Early Church Fathers - written in 1896 & free at Google Books]. To me, the pre-incarnate Jesus was active between Genesis through Bethlehem, taking whatever shape or form God needed at a particular time. In the KJV book of Daniel 3:25, Nebuchadnezzar saw a fourth man in the fiery furnace who appeared as “like unto the Son of God.” One of the church fathers suggested that the pre-incarnate Jesus took the form of the Ark that bore Noah through the flood.
Yes, in Christian theology, the rock Moses struck to provide water for the Israelites in the desert is often interpreted as a symbolic representation of Jesus Christ. This interpretation is based on 1 Corinthians 10:4, where Paul writes that "the rock was Christ". The passage suggests that the water from the rock symbolizes the spiritual provision and sustenance that Christians receive through Jesus. If Paul is being literal, then the “rock” would have had to be the pre-incarnate Jesus, taking a form God needed at that moment. Sorry for my ramble.
Wayne Grudem, one of the premier theologians of our time, states very clearly that the Bible doesn’t say anywhere that “he descended into hell”. When Jesus tells the thief on the cross that “today you will be with me in paradise”, every other use of that word paradise in scripture means “heaven”, not some less-tormenting place in hell! When Jesus says “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit”, (Luke23:46) he clearly has the expectation that he will be reunited with his father now, not in 3 days from now. Please see more details in Wayne Grudem’s book: “He did not descend into Hell: A Plea to follow Scripture instead of the Apostles Creed.”
Michael, great clarification... I just shared it.
Hey thanks Jim! Hope you’re doing well brother
I found this substack article insightful. It offers a compelling reconciliation of the Apostle's Creed with Jesus' promise to the penitent thief that He would be with him in paradise. Be blessed!
Great examination of the subject
I’ve never heard an explanation like this. It’s so helpful. Thank you!
🌐 ☦️ 🪨 🎣 ✨⛪
The devil, death and hell took the bait.....
....Jesus smashed the gates⛓️🚪 & locks! 🔓🗝️
🎶 CHRIST IS RISEN from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs, bestowing LIFE! 📯🎵 🔔 📖 📣
Haha that’s impressive!
4th century 🌍
Simply put. When one dies they “sleep” until their resurrection. They neither go to heaven or hell. There are 3 resurrections in the Bible #1 the Firstfruits who have died in the faith, who become the Bride of Christ at His(2nd)Coming then the rest who have died (all of mankind who were never called) lived not again until the end of the millennium, which is the 2nd resurrection, is when all will have their first opportunity to know the Truth of God to accept Christ as their Saviour and to choose or reject the symbolic Tree of Life. The 3rd resurrection is for all who have rejected their Firstfruit calling (and the 50% of the Laodiceans who do not repent in the coming Great Tribulation) and are cast into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death, to be as if they never were. Not in an eternal life in hell, that is a diabolical myth! That has been concocted by a false traditional christianity!!!
Now, when Christ died he was dead ( slept) for 3 days & 3 nights as prophesied. And then Resurrected, he had not yet ascended to the 3rd Heaven to be received unto God the Father.
The “thief” will not meet with Christ in “paradise” until he is resurrected when he comes up in the 2nd resurrection, After Christ has reigned 1000 years as the King of Kings over the whole earth when The Kingdom has been established for a Millennium. It’s all 100% Scriptural and each in their own order. Prove all things….
What are your thoughts on the risen dead that were seen on the earth at that time?
God is a “I love you, but you doubt, so I will do something really outrageous that will make you believe my love, you know, the Passover, then the Law and one-year interval for annual atonement, oh, still you don’t believe, ok I will show you, the widow and her cruse of oil, her son resurrected, don’t forget new life from dead wood with almonds & blossoms on Aaron’s rod in Numbers, the Prophets topping earlier Supernatural events like Elijah’s challenging Baal’s prophets then God’s “on demand” fire, other profits they killed.” God, still don’t believe me, in the Valley of Dry bones, he describes reconstituting long dead, scattered parts; still no faith - refresh with Abraham & Isaac & a Ram caught in a Thicket. Ok, still doubt, I will show you how much I love you, In his 3 year ministry, Jesus resurrects Jairus’ daughter, Peter’s mother, the Centurian’s servant. I mean, one would think that the quantity of restoring to life the recent dead, should have made God’s point, and that valley of dry bones vision should have made the point that restoring of life is possible with long dead body parts. But, no, God is about to improve on his Aaron’s rod, “new life from dead wood” example by letting the cross (dead wood) produce new life for his son out of such great love for us.
But let me step back on this theme of God one-upping himself to demonstrate how very much He loves us. Finally, he says, I’ll show you, I will become a baby as prophesied, live to the age of a Rabbi, then demonstrate resurrection love with solitary examples, then accept being nailed to a tree/dead wood and, in my son’s resurrection, I will again show you how much I love you…and, as Jesus once said that even the rocks would cry-out, while Jesus is forsaken on the dead wood, I will produce an earthquake and, in nearby graveyards, the graves will cry-out and expel multiple saints who, like Lazarus, probably “stinketh much” in order that the vision of the valley of Dry bones becomes a witnessed reality of multiple Saints in the days in which the Kingdom of God has come to earth. Finally, after the very real cessation of ekg & eeg death & burial, only through the Power of God is His love demonstrated to us through the witnesses and written accounts of a nail/spear scarred side, hands & feet of Christ. Hastily assembled, that’s how I have come to see this.
God escalates His proof.
Given the earthquake & the graves opening & the dead walking about and also witnessing the Resurrected Jesus (about 500 witnesses)
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
So, I believe this!
Oh, I believe it for sure. I am just curious about the reason for it.
Scripture helps to explain this ….
“For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
1 Peter 3:18-20
Psalm 16 and Zechariah 3 read together says a lot to clarify what Jesus did over the 2 days. Yes, Sheol but wasnt left abandoned there (Ps 16) because He has a meeting to attend the next day (Zech 3). http://ungrammaticalmessage.com/2024/06/11/zechariah-3-what-happened-after-jesus-died/
Unfortunately there are a lot of misconceptions here. Do we trust the Bible or do we prefer imaginary stories?
The strange idea that Jesus was still alive when he was dead is without biblical merit.
We know from 1Pet 3:18 what happened.
> For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
He died as flesh. He was raised in the spirit. Between the two he was dead, having surrendered his spirit to the Father at his death.
v19 in which he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison
He went to the spirits in prison in the spirit in which he was raised. AFTER he was raised, not before.
That’s one matter, there are several more but we’ll see what happens next.
Do we care for truth out of the Bible or are we willing to make it up as we go?
Ephesians 4:9-10
Thanks for the scripture Phil.
4 commentaries that I referenced say that Eph 4 is a reference to when Jesus went from the the heavenly realm to the earth and took on flesh in the incarnation. 🤷🏼♂️
This may be one of the references you cite, along with the Apostles creed:
https://orthodoxbridge.com/2018/04/06/evidence-christs-descent-hell/#:~:text=For%20as%20Jonah%20was%20three,lower%20parts%20of%20the%20earth?%20(
As a 14 year-old, in Methodist Youth Fellowship, we discussed the “descent to hell”, described in the Creed and we found the NT passages as well as the Psalm references.
Imagine the power of the pre-incarnate Jesus, described in John 1, how he created everything & nothing was created without Him; and that description serves as a basis for launching Genesis. I had to ask myself 30 years ago, “What did God do with the pre-incarnate Jesus after creation of everything, put Him on a shelf and wait for the Incarnation in Bethlehem?” [I was reading Rev. Andrew Jukes’ “The Types in Genesis” in which his many footnotes cited the interpretations of the Early Church Fathers - written in 1896 & free at Google Books]. To me, the pre-incarnate Jesus was active between Genesis through Bethlehem, taking whatever shape or form God needed at a particular time. In the KJV book of Daniel 3:25, Nebuchadnezzar saw a fourth man in the fiery furnace who appeared as “like unto the Son of God.” One of the church fathers suggested that the pre-incarnate Jesus took the form of the Ark that bore Noah through the flood.
Yes, in Christian theology, the rock Moses struck to provide water for the Israelites in the desert is often interpreted as a symbolic representation of Jesus Christ. This interpretation is based on 1 Corinthians 10:4, where Paul writes that "the rock was Christ". The passage suggests that the water from the rock symbolizes the spiritual provision and sustenance that Christians receive through Jesus. If Paul is being literal, then the “rock” would have had to be the pre-incarnate Jesus, taking a form God needed at that moment. Sorry for my ramble.
Wayne Grudem, one of the premier theologians of our time, states very clearly that the Bible doesn’t say anywhere that “he descended into hell”. When Jesus tells the thief on the cross that “today you will be with me in paradise”, every other use of that word paradise in scripture means “heaven”, not some less-tormenting place in hell! When Jesus says “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit”, (Luke23:46) he clearly has the expectation that he will be reunited with his father now, not in 3 days from now. Please see more details in Wayne Grudem’s book: “He did not descend into Hell: A Plea to follow Scripture instead of the Apostles Creed.”
Perhaps Grudem, ironically, needs to read more systematically.